Saul and David: Or Punishment vs: Correction
I have had several requests to re-post a message I wrote back in 2008, or to simply explain why the Lord treated Saul differently, than He treated David. I mean, both of them sinned, and some of those were quite drastic sins (if they could be “graded”).
So I thought it might be a good idea to deal with this again, because this is indeed an issue all of us, as believers, need to understand. First understand that both Saul and David had indeed committed some of the most horrible, ungodly sins over an extended period of time in several different settings and circumstances (in other words, these were not flukes or exceptions to the rule).
Some Bible teachers will argue against that, but it cannot be supported Biblically. You have to understand that even some Jewish scholars believe that David was sinless, they will twist and contort the Scriptures to validate that belief, but the reality is that when you read about David’s life, he does some really cool things . . . and some really horrendous things.
Now, in the case of Saul, YHWH permanently expelled him from His presence (and from His Kingdom). On the other hand, David was severely punished for many of his sins, but he was still allowed to remain within YHWH’s presence and within His Kingdom. That’s right. Saul was vomited out of God’s presence for his wrong behavior and David was harshly disciplined, however, he was still loved and anointed by his God!
Huh? What’s up with that? Why were they treated differently? Why is there such a drastic contrast in how the Lord treated them? I mean, don’t you think this is something we should know about?
Well . . . it came down to two factors: identification and zeal.
Now that may seem unfair to some of you, but look at the difference between Saul and David. Saul had quit identifying himself with his God. He lost any zeal for God (if he had it all to begin with), and he instead kept trying to find ways around the commands of the Lord–or even saying he would follow Him.
We get the perfect example of this when Saul met with Samuel, the Prophet of YHWH. Saul always asked Samuel, “What did your God say?” Not, “our” God. Saul saw YHWH as an adversary and tried to defeat His will whenever he could. We see this especially when Samuel directly told him that David was YHWH’s new anointed king! So, what did Saul do? He tried to kill David to stop it.
On the other hand, David never quit identifying himself with YHWH, nor lost his zeal for Him, or his love and respect for Him. Sure, from some of his actions you would think he had, but, yes his actions may have shown it, but his faith was sincere! You can see this because David never tried to usurp the Lord’s sovereignty, and when confronted with his sin, he was deeply grieved and broken. Whenever Saul was confronted with his sin, instead of being broken and grieved . . . he would try to excuse it and defend his actions.
David actually ran some drastic extremes. He was either very hot, or he was very cold. What I mean is that he was determined to act in the most pious and faithful way possible, like when he refused to kill Saul, even though Saul was close enough and all of his men were saying, “kill him, kill him!” But David ignored them and remained quite honorable. On the other hand, although he fully expected others to obey God’s laws, when he became king, he allowed his own “evil inclinations” to rule his life. He sometimes actually seemed to see himself as above it all, and committed the most heinous sins like adultery and murder, and as a father he allowed he never disciplined his children or made them accept responsibility for their sinful actions.
Now, to compare this I want to quote a passage from Revelation where the End Times Messiah states this principle.
If you actually read those verses above, he actually says that He rebukes and disciplines everyone He loves! So if you prefer to avoid a rebuke and discipline, that our Father would prefer not to have to do, turn from your sins! Turn from your disobedience to what He commands (which is the only Biblical definition of sin that exists).
On the other hand, He will abandon some? Read what Paul said about it:
The crux of the whole issue is those who are what they do, versus those who are Christ’s, but do some of these wrong things. Those who identify with greed, drunkenness, homosexuality, and idolatry versus those who identify with Christ but in their weakness have committed drunkenness, greed, idolatry, a homosexual act, etc. Do you see this?
I recently watched a show that perfectly illustrates what I mean. I can’t remember the title of the show, but the part I remember was when a man who had a good wife, a decent home, and a steady job worked with some other men to plan and commit a strong-armed robbery. Although he had been to prison in the past for doing those kinds of things and as the years had gone by, he seemed to have turned over a new leaf and appeared to have completely reformed. After the robbery, when he arrived home to face his wife, she was just flabbergasted that he did this terrible thing and that he was so cool and calm and forthcoming about it all.
His response was that he had no choice: he was a thief by nature so he just did what was natural for him. His whole being is wrapped up in being a thief. So the years that had gone by where he didn’t commit any crimes, were out of character for him. That’s what the Scriptures are telling us! A man who identifies with his sinful behavior in such a strong way, IS that behavior and as such, cannot identify with God; the two are mutually exclusive.
What I am saying is that our daily behavior doesn’t earn our way into Heaven, nor does it get us ejected from heaven. However, our daily behavior (as Believers) will merit us either God’s mercy and blessings or God’s severe discipline. Does that make sense? Does that help any? Our Lord’s death on the cross saved us from the curse of eternal death for our sinful behavior and our sinful nature; but it did not save us from our Father’s curse of punishments and calamities on this earth, during our physical life span, as a result of our sins.
On the other hand, even perfect behavior without identifying with Christ might give us a life full of earthly blessings along with loving adoration from our friends and family; but when we pass from this life, with absolute certainty, we face eternal death.
Nickolas
So I thought it might be a good idea to deal with this again, because this is indeed an issue all of us, as believers, need to understand. First understand that both Saul and David had indeed committed some of the most horrible, ungodly sins over an extended period of time in several different settings and circumstances (in other words, these were not flukes or exceptions to the rule).
Some Bible teachers will argue against that, but it cannot be supported Biblically. You have to understand that even some Jewish scholars believe that David was sinless, they will twist and contort the Scriptures to validate that belief, but the reality is that when you read about David’s life, he does some really cool things . . . and some really horrendous things.
Now, in the case of Saul, YHWH permanently expelled him from His presence (and from His Kingdom). On the other hand, David was severely punished for many of his sins, but he was still allowed to remain within YHWH’s presence and within His Kingdom. That’s right. Saul was vomited out of God’s presence for his wrong behavior and David was harshly disciplined, however, he was still loved and anointed by his God!
Huh? What’s up with that? Why were they treated differently? Why is there such a drastic contrast in how the Lord treated them? I mean, don’t you think this is something we should know about?
Well . . . it came down to two factors: identification and zeal.
Now that may seem unfair to some of you, but look at the difference between Saul and David. Saul had quit identifying himself with his God. He lost any zeal for God (if he had it all to begin with), and he instead kept trying to find ways around the commands of the Lord–or even saying he would follow Him.
We get the perfect example of this when Saul met with Samuel, the Prophet of YHWH. Saul always asked Samuel, “What did your God say?” Not, “our” God. Saul saw YHWH as an adversary and tried to defeat His will whenever he could. We see this especially when Samuel directly told him that David was YHWH’s new anointed king! So, what did Saul do? He tried to kill David to stop it.
On the other hand, David never quit identifying himself with YHWH, nor lost his zeal for Him, or his love and respect for Him. Sure, from some of his actions you would think he had, but, yes his actions may have shown it, but his faith was sincere! You can see this because David never tried to usurp the Lord’s sovereignty, and when confronted with his sin, he was deeply grieved and broken. Whenever Saul was confronted with his sin, instead of being broken and grieved . . . he would try to excuse it and defend his actions.
David actually ran some drastic extremes. He was either very hot, or he was very cold. What I mean is that he was determined to act in the most pious and faithful way possible, like when he refused to kill Saul, even though Saul was close enough and all of his men were saying, “kill him, kill him!” But David ignored them and remained quite honorable. On the other hand, although he fully expected others to obey God’s laws, when he became king, he allowed his own “evil inclinations” to rule his life. He sometimes actually seemed to see himself as above it all, and committed the most heinous sins like adultery and murder, and as a father he allowed he never disciplined his children or made them accept responsibility for their sinful actions.
Now, to compare this I want to quote a passage from Revelation where the End Times Messiah states this principle.
“To the angel of the Messianic Community in Laodicea, write: ‘Here is the message from the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the Ruler of God’s creation: “I know what you are doing: you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm, neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of my mouth! —Revelations 3:14-16I actually want to shout every time I hear a Pastor say that sin has nothing to do with obedience and that no amount of sin will bring the Believer any punishment. What they are admitting to is the incorrect belief that divine punishment means that God has left or abandoned them.
As for me, I rebuke and discipline everyone I love; so exert yourselves, and turn from your sins! —Revelation 3:19
If you actually read those verses above, he actually says that He rebukes and disciplines everyone He loves! So if you prefer to avoid a rebuke and discipline, that our Father would prefer not to have to do, turn from your sins! Turn from your disobedience to what He commands (which is the only Biblical definition of sin that exists).
On the other hand, He will abandon some? Read what Paul said about it:
I’m not ashamed of the Good News. It is God’s power to save everyone who believes, Jews first and Greeks as well. God’s approval is revealed in this Good News. This approval begins and ends with faith as Scripture says, “The person who has God’s approval will live by faith.”Paul puts those who the Lord abandons into a completely different context, doesn’t he? identification, those with a firm and unrelenting grip on an ungodly lifestyle.
God’s anger is revealed from heaven against every ungodly and immoral thing people do as they try to suppress the truth by their immoral living. What can be known about God is clear to them because he has made it clear to them. From the creation of the world, God’s invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly observed in what he made. As a result, people have no excuse. They knew God but did not praise and thank him for being God. Instead, their thoughts were pointless, and their misguided minds were plunged into darkness. While claiming to be wise, they became fools. They exchanged the glory of the immortal God for statues that looked like mortal humans, birds, animals, and snakes.
For this reason God allowed their lusts to control them. As a result, they dishonor their bodies by sexual perversion with each other. These people have exchanged God’s truth for a lie. So they have become ungodly and serve what is created rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen!
For this reason God allowed their shameful passions to control them. Their women have exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. Likewise, their men have given up natural sexual relations with women and burn with lust for each other. Men commit indecent acts with men, so they experience among themselves the punishment they deserve for their perversion.
And because they thought it was worthless to acknowledge God, God allowed their own immoral minds to control them. So they do these indecent things. Their lives are filled with all kinds of sexual sins, wickedness, and greed. They are mean. They are filled with envy, murder, quarreling, deceit, and viciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, haughty, arrogant, and boastful. They think up new ways to be cruel. They don’t obey their parents, don’t have any sense, don’t keep promises, and don’t show love to their own families or mercy to others. Although they know God’s judgment that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do these things but also approve of others who do them. —Romans 1:16-32
Don’t you know that wicked people won’t inherit the kingdom of God? Stop deceiving yourselves! People who continue to commit sexual sins, who worship false gods, those who commit adultery, homosexuals, or thieves, those who are greedy or drunk, who use abusive language, or who rob people will not inherit the kingdom of God. That’s what some of you were! But you have been washed and made holy, and you have received God’s approval in the name of the Lord Yeshua Christ and in the Spirit of our God. —I Corinthians 6:9-11Many translations do not translate the eleventh verse well. The Complete Jewish Bible says “you used to do these things”. The King James Version (and almost every other translations) says, “You were these things.” That is the point: identification. What you do is your behavior; What you are is your identity. As a good friend once said to me: going to church no more makes you a Christian than standing in a garage makes you a car.
The crux of the whole issue is those who are what they do, versus those who are Christ’s, but do some of these wrong things. Those who identify with greed, drunkenness, homosexuality, and idolatry versus those who identify with Christ but in their weakness have committed drunkenness, greed, idolatry, a homosexual act, etc. Do you see this?
I recently watched a show that perfectly illustrates what I mean. I can’t remember the title of the show, but the part I remember was when a man who had a good wife, a decent home, and a steady job worked with some other men to plan and commit a strong-armed robbery. Although he had been to prison in the past for doing those kinds of things and as the years had gone by, he seemed to have turned over a new leaf and appeared to have completely reformed. After the robbery, when he arrived home to face his wife, she was just flabbergasted that he did this terrible thing and that he was so cool and calm and forthcoming about it all.
His response was that he had no choice: he was a thief by nature so he just did what was natural for him. His whole being is wrapped up in being a thief. So the years that had gone by where he didn’t commit any crimes, were out of character for him. That’s what the Scriptures are telling us! A man who identifies with his sinful behavior in such a strong way, IS that behavior and as such, cannot identify with God; the two are mutually exclusive.
What I am saying is that our daily behavior doesn’t earn our way into Heaven, nor does it get us ejected from heaven. However, our daily behavior (as Believers) will merit us either God’s mercy and blessings or God’s severe discipline. Does that make sense? Does that help any? Our Lord’s death on the cross saved us from the curse of eternal death for our sinful behavior and our sinful nature; but it did not save us from our Father’s curse of punishments and calamities on this earth, during our physical life span, as a result of our sins.
On the other hand, even perfect behavior without identifying with Christ might give us a life full of earthly blessings along with loving adoration from our friends and family; but when we pass from this life, with absolute certainty, we face eternal death.
Nickolas
(I send out messages like this each morning in emails, and if you are interested in receiving them, send me your email address and I will add you to the list)
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