The Art of Conversation I: How to Transform Your Conversations into an Act of Love of God and Neighbor
The American Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property held its annual National Conference on October 25-27, 2024. One highlight was a talk by long-time TFP member Nelson Fragelli. His topic was “Fighting For Our Catholic Culture: How Dr. Plinio Used the Art of Conversation.” We are dividing its content into two separate pieces. Here, Mr. Fragelli discusses the ideal purpose of conversation. A second will delve into the “rules” behind creating a pleasant and blessed conversation oriented for the glory of God.
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Conversation is a vast theme. Outlining some principles that should guide our conversations can help us better understand the topic. This will help us see the true value and scope of this important art. I hope our discussion will not be a lecture but a conversation about how to converse.
First, the principle that should guide our choice of topics and our comments should be the good of others. We must seek to do good for those with whom we converse. In other words, conversation is a precious means of apostolate, that is, a means of spreading the Faith to others. Thus, our attitude towards conversation must be like that of an apostle who acts with zeal and passion.
Second, we have a vast field to work in since the characteristics of the Church are unfathomable. God is infinite, so we have always had much to say about the Church and God. Conversations aimed at spreading our thinking are an important part of our mission as Catholics. We converse to bring souls closer to the Catholic Church and Christian civilization.
The External Apostolate
There are two types of apostolate we can do by employing conversation. The first is an external apostolate to reach those outside the practice of the Faith.
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In his apostolate in India and Japan, Saint Francis Xavier saw the enthusiasm caused by Catholic doctrine among pagan peoples and, consequently, countless conversions. In his conversations and preaching, he converted a large number of pagans. He used to say: “I would like to go around the universities in Europe and cry out loudly in front of everyone: ‘A great number of souls are excluded from Heaven and thrown into Hell because of you.’”
The great Jesuit missionary said that souls are lost because people do not converse and spread the Faith.
We could say the same about those who walk in the dark paths of our neo-pagan world. Saint Francis Xavier spoke to the pagans in Japan, India and Korea. Our task is to communicate with those outside who walk in the dark passages of sin where deceit and iniquity are rife. Many would like to change their lives and walk with us. We should reach out to these people and converse with them.
This is the external apostolate with those outside the practice of the Faith. Saint Francis Xavier had an external apostolate. When we meet people who are still not counter-revolutionary and do not practice the Faith, we also are exercising an external apostolate.
The Internal Apostolate
The second kind of apostolate is internal apostolate. According to the founder of the TFP, Prof. Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira, this action can be more important than the external apostolate since it maintains the fervor of the Faithful. This apostolate is directed toward our close contacts, who already think as we do and adhere to orthodox Catholic teaching.
How do we do this apostolate with those who are like us?
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We have a duty to engage with these people by making our social interaction and conviviality more pleasant and attractive. Our conversation should become a means of increasing fervor and distancing ourselves even more from the world.
The great instrument of this apostolate of encouragement and fervor is conversation. It is not solitary prayer but conversation. Thus, this internal apostolate is our weapon to increase fervor and enthusiasm among us.
We must embrace the effort of this apostolate because it is much needed. In the past, many endeavors failed because no one could take up this task. Looking at Church history, we note that the enthusiasm of good Catholics often wanes, and their fervor cools. The spirit of the world attracts and disturbs them.
Such was the case in Catholic Spain, where Catholics waned in their fervor and were dominated by the Muslims for eight centuries. This same pattern could be seen in France during the fifteenth century. God raised up Saint Joan of Arc to restore the Faith, which had fallen into disorder in the Most Christian Kingdom. Good conversation is one way to rekindle the fervor of lukewarm Catholics.
Moments of Grace
Engaging in pleasant and useful conversation is similar to the case of a host who invites friends to dinner. He is delighted to see that his guests have enjoyed the courses, wine and dessert.
In a conversation, each participant is both a host and a guest. Each participant offers his ideas and comments and receives observations and thoughts from those who listen. Everyone is delighted when expressions of joy emerge from the minds of the participants. The pleasure consists of feeling that the participants in the conversation are united in their points of view. The success of a conversation is achieved when some or all can say: “I’ve learned new aspects of life that I didn’t know, but I also feel that the others are happy with my ideas.’ Such a conclusion expresses the true meaning of friendship and conversation.
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In these moments of joy of a successful conversation, we can feel the invisible presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ, Who promised: “I tell you, if two or three come together in my name, I will be in the midst of them.” What a promise of Our Lord!
When conversations are thus blessed, we can see the action of grace working. God has a personal interest in conversations, as seen by His promise. Grace manifests itself when the subject attracts us. Grace manifests itself as a spiritual help when we sense a stimulus to new thoughts and opinions or an enthusiasm for the topic. Our Lord manifests Himself in these cases by providing participation in His divine life. He is the great partner in a conversation because He said, “I will be in the midst of you.” Our Lord Jesus Christ, through grace, comes to us as we interact.
An Intersection of the Spiritual and the Temporal
Consequently, such conversations constitute an intersection of two spheres: the spiritual and the temporal sphere. Conversation occurs in the spiritual sphere because it is a prayer, according to the promise of Our Lord. It also occurs in the spiritual sphere because it is an act of apostolate carried out in the presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Conversation is situated in the temporal sphere because social interaction is a legitimate customary shared pleasure.
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Therefore, we must avoid being indifferent to the needs of souls during conversation. We must also avoid thinking about ourselves and our “brilliant” arguments. These distractions take us away from the sublime aspect of the conversation. The purpose of the conversation is not to glorify one of those present but to sanctify the persons participating in it.
When we converse out of love for our neighbor, we do our apostolate.
So, with apostolic zeal, we must observe certain rules, especially the supreme rule of doing good to others. In this way, we can draw the main interlocutor into our conversations—the One who has promised to be among us whenever we come together in His name.
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